10/01/2008
The Way to Eden
So ok, we all had some good laughs today. That "His name was Adam" line has got to be the corniest ever. But Spock has feelings; who would have thought? Let's take this wherever it goes, but here are some ideas to start off with: Adam's song about "Gonna live, not die": is that purely ironic, or is there some truth to it? Space hippies taking over the Enterprise: plausible? What about from a 1969 perspective? What did you discover about Do (Marshall Applewhite)/Heaven's Gate and Jim Jones/Jamestown? Does the episode seem prescient? What about this idea of humans being poisoned by technology? I could go on, but I'm more curious about what all of you picked up on. Was it worth watching?
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32 comments:
Oh it was absolutely worth watching, if not only for the comedy, but to really see and understand that back in '69, that was high tech special effects. The space hippies made us laugh, but again back then it related on some level to a good portion of Americans.
Sam, you're dead right; that whole idea of not respecting any authority except what comes from inside them was absolutely counter culture philosophy. Do you think it's become mainstream at all?
Well, that episode, I would agree, was a total take on the hippies and counter culture that was going on at that exact time in '69. I think that concept of not respecting any authority except for yourself has become too mainstream today. Along with it common courtesy and common sense, almost, has flown right out the door.
I liked that cultish aspect of how when you truly believe in something with your whole being nothing else matters--the dangers of complete and utter blind faith. The space hippies questioned all authority except for their own and in the end it got them killed.
And on a lighter side note I'd just like to ask who do you think is a more dramatic actor: William Shatner or Charlton Heston?
Shatner is more straight up dramatic, but I think Heston is more effective at it.
I also thought it ironic, and Bradburyish, that when they at last arrived on Eden, the paradise they so longed for was dangerous to them. It's like they made a choice long ago to turn away from their very roots and now they must suffer for it, never returning.
Then again, I may be thinking too much into this...
I thought the bald leader guy (sorry, I forgot his name) was being pretty stubborn in the end. It's like he didn't want to accept the fact that the paradise he'd been searching for wasn't what he excpected. Or maybe he just didn't care...?
And I think you're right about them suffering for their choice. They decided to look for Eden and their decision had a consequence.
Yes, it's true that Spock has feelings... and probably other Vulcans at that. It's just that Vulcans have mastered their emotions, and unlike humans, they make their decisions solely on logic ((Probably why one of Spock's famous sayings is - "That's illogical")) rather than being swayed by emotions.
In response to the fact of Space hippies taking over the Enterprise being plausible or not ((sounds like Mythbusters, with that word, haha)) - I believe it is. Why do I come to this conclusion? Think about the roles all of them had before joining the Planet Eden quest. Tongo Rad - son of an Catuallan ambassador; Irina Gulliulin - Starfleet Academy dropout; Dr. Sevin - Communications and electronics researcher from Tiburon; and then we have Adam, Mavig (the blonde girl who sings with Adam), and another unknown woman. When you figure that out... you basically have the basics of what you need to run a ship. And even if you don't have futuristic technology, you still have the basics of a leadership - especially for maybe a military branch.
By the way, the scene of Adam dying after eating the fruit is actually a reference to how the biblical Adam died in Eden - by taking a bite of an apple.
Oh, and this was totally worth watching. Though... it does make me want to watch more Star Trek episodes.
Scully ~ in response to your question about whose more dramatic: Shatner or Heston... I'm afraid that I won't be able to answer. I am pretty familiar with Shatner... but I can't say I'm familiar enough with any of Heston's works to know how he would compare to Shatner. But knowing Shatner... I think he probably be the winner.
Everyone ~ What is your favorite Star Trek series? Why? And if possible, who is your favorite character from that series? Have more than one favorite? Then list your top 3 favorite characters. :)
Another question - how many of you are looking forward to the new Star Trek movie coming next year?
Okay I have to admit I've never been a huge Star Treck fan (but don't get me wrong, I grew up with it... dad and sister were VERY into it!) But oh man did I get a good laugh out of it today! Can't decide which one was more my favorite part... the obvious "His name was Adam" line, or the dramatic ear grabbing when they were being stunned. (Oh and in response to Scully, I'd have to say that William Shatner definitely wins for most dramatic... although it was close. ;)
In response to Christine's questions I like all four of the better known spin-offs for the original series my top 3 are scotty, chekov, and sulu, for next gen it's data, lore, and Q, for ds9 it's quark odo and dr. bashir, for voyager it's chakotay, neelix, and kes I wantched the episode on youtube so I agree that it was plausible that the hipies could have taken over the ship, also I agree that the scene on eden was symbolic of adam eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in biblical eden, also I've got low expectations for the new trek movie, here are my reasons !( they are setting it in the acadamy years and having a young khan even though he was in stasis on the botany bay during that time period, 2( I disagree with some of the casting choices, I can't see John Cho as sulu or Matt Damon as kirk
Truth be told I have more than 3 characters I like from each series, my other original series favs are Dr. McCoy, Spock, Kirk, Kor the Klingon, and Khan, for next gen there's Worf, Picard, Geordi, deanna,Will, and Wesley Crusher, for DS9 there's Jadzia Dax, Rom, Nog, Kira, and Sisko, and for voyager ther's Tuvok, B'Elanna, and Tom
My response to my own question:
My favorite Star Trek series is Voyager. Though I love all of the Star Trek series when it comes right down to it, but it's Voyager that takes the lead in favorites. My favorite characters are Janeway, Doctor, and Neelix.
When it comes to the other series:
Original - Spock
TNG - Data, Geordi, and Worf
DS9 - Odo
Enterprise - T'Pol, Archer
As for the new Star Trek movie, I'm looking forward to it. It may end up not being a great one, but I'm still looking forward to it just simply because it's a Star Trek movie. Plus I'm looking forward to seeing Zachary Quinto (he plays Sylar on NBC's Heroes) as Spock. I've seen pictures of him dressed up and I'm quite impressed, and knowing how he acts on Heroes, I'm thinking Zachary Quinto will pull off a good Spock. May not be as good as our original Spock, but hey! Nothing ever beats the original - ain't that usually the common view?
By the way Bryson, Matt Damon isn't playing Kirk. Chris Pine is. You can find the whole list of the cast for the new Star Trek movie on IMDB (Internet Movie Database - www.imdb.com).
I liked watching the episode because of the comedy, and I also thought it was interesting that there was a connection between the founder of Jonestown, Guyana and the hippie leader on the Star Trek episode. Jim Jones was the leader of a cult movement called ‘People’s Temple’ that started back in the 1950s and really took off in the late 60s and ended with a mass suicide of 900 people (including Jim Jones) in 1978. The very ironic thing about this was that many of the people who joined the movement (actually most of the people) did not know they were going to die. I don’t know much about the events leading up to the suicide, but Jones persuaded or forced the followers to drink cyanide laced grape flavor aide. The comparison between this real life happening and the hippie’s ideals in the episode is very similar because ‘Adam’ and the hippie leader wanted to go to Eden to make a better life, but they ended up dying from poison. And the leader was, in a way, not telling his followers the whole truth of his intentions of going there.
Ok sorry about the casting confusion, I agree that Quinto will make a great spock, also Leonard Nimoy is making a cameo in the movie so you'll get the best of both. As far as Heroes goes does anyone besides Christine and myself watch? so far the first three episodes have more than made up for the lackluster second season. For those who watch who are your favorite characters? mine are sylar, moginder, claude, peter, hiro and the haitian
I think I;ve given up on Star Trek movies finally, so I'll stay out of that one. Brittany, you're right about the irony. THis predates the Joenstown thing. Like Sevrin, Jones was at least partially nuts -- or how society defines nuts, anyway. And as Scully said, there's that whole blind faith/cult aspect. THere's a real irony in this episode, I think. They reject all authority, but Sevrin is still the "authority," and in the group's blind obedience to and belief in him, they get killed.
What do you think about the whole "science is poison" message? Do you think the episode rejects that idea, accepts it, or neither?
Captain Vimes, I agree about the irony of the dangerous Eden. But then, Eden was a dangerous place once Adam and Eve obtained some knowledge. I think that makes it even more ironic, no? Sevrin and the hippies are trying to escape from knowledge; they refuse to be saved by it.
As for Shatner and Heston, they both overact. I dunno.
There is definitely an uncanny similarity between "the Way to Eden" and the Heaven's Gate cult. Both are looking for the unearthly heaven in space. The Heaven's Gate cult started in 1972 and ended in a mass suicide of 39 people, including the remaining founder DO, in 1997.
I think that The Way to Eden episode is really telling us that heaven is unatainable, once you get there, it is still out of reach.
Did DO/Marshall Applegate of the Heaven's Gate cult watch this episode and did it get into his head? It is important to remember that he was also likely schizophrenic and at least one website documented that he started this cult when he was in the mental hospital suffering from auditory hallucinations (hearing voices). Reality can get confusing for someone like that and I can see where if he did see this star trek episode that it could have given him "ideas".
(BTW, Nancy - recoveryroxx is Racquel Hager)
I'm looking forward to the new Star Trek movie because I'm curious to see how they'll go about the technology. On one hand, with today's special effects we could be seeing some really cool stuff. However, they can't make everything look too impressive because the movie starts up when Kirk is young and the Enterprise is brand new. They won't be able to have the technology outshine the previous weapons/ systems of the old shows if it would technically be older because of the time line. Hopefully that made sense. There was also a controversy in the news when Nimoy was asked to make a cameo and Shatner wasn't. He wasn't too happy.
About the episode we watched in class, I think it was worth it. It was entertaining to see what was considered high tech at the time and the influence of the hippies on the culture. I think it was plausible that they managed to hijack the Enterprise. They had the element of surprise and doubt. The crew assumed they were peaceful and wouldn't stoop to violence to reach their goal. They might be more cautious next time rather than join the outlaws in their karaoke night. Actually, their karaoke may be an effective torturing method the next time an enemy refuses to talk. I wouldn't want to be locked up with them.
I thought it was interesting to see that The Way to Eden was made during the decline of the 60's.
Also:
- Did anyone notice any similarities with say, Timothy Leary and the leader of the space hippies? (I forget his name...)
- Do you guys think Eden was the most wonderfully ironic name for a planet that did nothing but kill?
And for Scully - Shatner.
My favorite characters from Heroes would have to be Hiro, Niki/Jessica/Tracy ((talk about multipersonality disorder!)), and lately since the beginning of the new season, my top winner favorite has been Sylar.
The second season probably appeared to be not that impressive because of the whole Writers Strike deal. All of the writers may have been slightly distracted with all that Strike business going on. Plus alot of shows had their seasons cut short because of it.
Another question branching further with this Heroes tangent - which side would you be on? Heroes or Villains?
It's kind of weird and disturbing how this episode predates both suicide cult incidents. I guess it's life imitating art (or sci-fi).
I would have to say that my favorite part of the episode was when Sulu asked the space hippy girl "How do YOU know what I like?" with that big grin on his face. Considering how he is now out as a gay man, it's pretty funny to see him say that. Plus his expression was priceless, regardless of his sexual orientation.
As for technology being a poison, it felt like the episode only briefly touched on that. Bald hippy leader man had his small speech on the dangers of technology, but other than that, they seemed to focus mostly on how crazy the guy was. I mean, he was lying to his followers, and even if he did find some primitives, they wouldn't be able to cure him, PLUS he would kill them with his space disease!
Clearly this leader-man didn't learn about the White man's genocide of Native Americans by use of smallpox and other diseases.
Going back to Nancy's question about the "science is poison" statement, I feel that the episode rejects the idea. Because in the end, it wasn't science that killed the space hippies, it was their stubbornness to find Eden and listening to their crazy leader. If anything, science might have been the one thing that could have prevented them from a fatal death. The crew could have isolated the leader guy and try to find a cure for him WITH the help of science and technology.
Does anyone else think it's ironic that the space hippies kept saying they didn't believe in any authority except their own and yet they still listened to their crazy leader despite his lack of logic?
fyi nancy this is bryson mchenry, in answer to christine's question based on powers alone it would be villains, based on character development it would be villains haha, sorry i love being evil haha, as far as tech as poison goes there is potential in the future for it in nanotechnology which is in it's infancy right now
if i remeber from the end of the episode correctly only adam and sevrin actually died, the other hippies were detained on the nearest starbase
that reminds me christine you forgot gina from season two the personality that got dl killed
it is always a good idea to watch star trek. trouble with tribbles being one of my fav episodes.
Wow, great comments. Bryson, you're right, just Adam and Sevrin died, but Sevrin would have let them all die, and seemed to think that was ideal. jeannie, you're right about that irony; good catch! Violet, I'm laughing at the karaoke torture, but I agree with you about the element of surprise. In a way, the Enterprise crew are naive, no? They make assumptions about the hippies, and the hippies use those stereotypes against them to achieve their goals. Kind of liek the guys who hijacked the planes in 2001 that did an awful lot of damage, as I recall.
James, i appreciate your comment about genocide through germs. That definitely seems to be one of the sub themes here. Sure, at first contact, Native peoples were wiped out by germs agaisnt which they had no immunity, and that's bad enough -- but then later, that knowledge was used by whites to infect blankets with smallpox to wipe out Native peoples. Effective strategy. Sevrin isn't terribly different; he just doesn't care (or maybe he just cares about his own goals).
Here's the Heaven's Gate website, by the way:
http://www.heavensgate.com/ Before they killed themselves, six of the guys, including Do, got castrated. Isn't there an ethical problem with a doctor castrating someone just because the person thinks it serves a spiritual purpose?
Definitely worth watching first off. Secondly I think its completely plausible for any kind of religious or fanatical group to take over a maintained environment. I would say the leader at the end just didnt care about anything other than they well being of his "family" that or he really was insane.
Those space hippies definitely used those stereotypes to their advantage. Even spock was fooled. Maybe this is also a warning that the hippies in real life in 1969 were dangerous and not to be trusted. I think it hits on the mainstream societies perception of the counter-culture of that time; they may be all music and love and peace on the outside, but they are really manipulative dangrous people.
= Racquel =
Bryson - Yeah, I remembered that other personality side of hers after I had posted the comment. But then I thought that the ones I did list were the major ones, and were the names that others would probably be able to identify the character best with.
in reply to Scully's first comment...they both are over actors, however, Shatner really is a good actor and has adapted to the the current trend of acting, while Heston never could...I'm not the biggest fan of Heston. At least Shatner can make me laugh. However, I will never forget when i watched Heston running down the street in a film and screaming "soylent green is people!"
;)
In reply to recovery roxx, that is an extreme stereotype. You're staying all hippies in real life in 1969 were dangerous and not to be trusted? Wow, that's not judgemental at all. They were "really manipulative dangrous people"? HM. Sooo, people like Bob Dylan, Jimi Hendrix, John Lennon, Bob Marley, (just to name a few...) were all dangerous, manipulative people? According to you and your stereotype, they were. Because they were what one would call "hippies". ...yeah, nice.
I'm not sure recovery roxx meant that all hippies were dangerous people, but that the episode in Star Trek played on the ridiculous fears that many people had about hippies.
I thought that the episode was interesting in that it was kind of this battle between technology and advancement with the movement to kind of go back to a natural way of life. I think it does good to also represent the Sci-Fi genre with other more traditional ones. I see this a lot today people are starting to almost stray away from entertainment and works that deal with worlds that aren't that real. I think people today crave something that is raw and more directly applicable.
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